Hey Marie,

I have not posted in months. I feel like I have been burned and judged at times by some of the posters and so I have remained a silent reader, and a follower of your thread in particular. Why? Not because I thought you had an awesome relationship. In fact, for some time I have feared that you and Sawinski (my two celebrities on this site) have been in some of your own denial about stuff.

[sorry Sawinski -- I truly hope I am wrong about you. You have helped so many people with your posts!]

You have also helped many, Marie H. And I have grown to respect the hell out of you despite the fact that I was pretty sure your relationship was a bit off. I am talking about months ago.

I dont claim to be psychic by any stretch of the imagination. If I were, I would not have married my own CL 7 years ago! But I am intuitive, and a therapist, and I get that those of us who are the walking wounded and decide to love again in spite of it all generally get walked on. I know how awful that sounds! I am the mother of a 3 year old and I do not want to teach her such cynicism and I want to teach her to beleive in love. But cautiously.

I am finally alone (besides my darling daughter of course) and I LOVE it. I hate to say it, but maybe our types have to always excercie extreme caution before EVER trusting a relationship. I wish that werent' so but I think we are too loving, too idealistic.

Anyway, Marie H, please hear this -- if it weren't for you and your solid advice I would still be with my CL and putting my daughter at risk.

If I never click on this site again, I have gained so much just by reading what you have written. That has not and will never change. Thank you so much. My daughter and I owe you our future. No joke.

Christine

Private Eye,

You mentioned that you thought I was in denial about some stuff and I just wanted to hear your oppinion. I know that you have read about me so if you could offer a little insight from the outside I would appreciate it.

By the way i agree with you about Marie, she really has been such a wonderful person.

Yea, I admit that I have been in denial about somethings in my life, and even in my relationship with H in the past, before all this came out. I acknowledge that. I was so, so in love with him, even with the crap I could've lived without. With that said though, throughout this entire recovery process I was not in denial. I was very aware that he had significant flaws, issues with lying, and relationship connection, communication, etc. I WAS in denial about those things before all this came out in 1/07..I wanted to believe that my wonderful marriage was great inspite of those things, hence I learned to live with them as they were. Kinda like a compromise to get what I wanted...the good stuff. I mean, we all have flaws and crap.

BUT, after this came out I was wayyy out of denial about his issues. They were there smack dab in my face. They were real to the bone. PE, these kinds of people can literally make you crazy. They so believe their lies that they become truth to them. When it becomes their truth, really, it becomes your truth too. To him, in his alter ego, he wasn't lying to me (about there being no other affairs or bombs to go off), because to him there was nothing else. Not to mention that a trained professional wouldn't believe me when I tried to explain that I wasn't completely feeling that he was being 100% honest with me (and with her). She completely believed that he was, in fact being honest, open and truthful. So...in the end I was being treated for a blockage of not being able to trust. It became all about my issues. Could somebody slap me please?

I understand about a person being in denial. Painful stuff is much easier to deal with if you can deny it to be factual. I get that. I've seen it in clients that have been abused. This was a sick, sick situation here. I was being conned and manipulated by two people. One unknowingly (the counselor) and him - knowingly. Once the counselor started to see the problem as being me it was just the ticket he needed to escape full responsibility. The counselor became his backup. What a freakin' mess.

But even knowing all this, it is very difficult to detach from emotions attached to memories that we had together. I have to literally reprogram the past 18 years. People have said to me - Marie, certainly some of it was real, because there have been times that maybe he was being a real person. No. For me it has all been a lie. Every minute and second of 18 years has been a lie, fake, distortion, fantasy...not real. Why? Because for me I was unaware that his true person, this person I have now come to know about, was all an act. There is no solidity in it for me now. I believe the person in the memories was a real, whole person and that his character and core was real, therefore all the attachments to those memories are connected to a figment of my imagination.

There are probably very few people here or anywhere that can understand the feelings I have about this. Not that I'm trying to win any kind of award for - Who Can Get The Most Hurt...but this isn't just about hurt. It's about losing not only hopes and dreams...it's about trying to see what an unreal world I was living right in the middle of and never knew it.

I'm pretty intuitive too...it's not always what people DO that gives you an impression...it's about what they DON'T do in certain situations. Sometimes what's missing sends a message. I was picking up on that, BUT, REMEMBER, being told that it was just me with problems. Intuition is not proven, so, you go with those that supposedly are professionals and can see things objectively. You trust their perspective because you can't trust your own. Understand?

There's just so much. So much involved here and for my very own sanity and protection, my survival I am detaching, slowly from all that I thought was real, acknowleding that my intuition and senses are more intact that I gave myself credit for and realize that this crap doesn't just happen on Lifetime Movies...it is real...it does happen...and I pray with all my heart and soul for the other people in this world who have had this happen to them. That they can somehow get the strength to live through it and get out of it. An angel tapped on my shoulder almost two weeks ago that pointed me in the direction of how this new information all came out. I am sure of it. There's no doubt in my mind...because if I hadn't accidentally found out about all this I would probably ended up in a padded cell. We all have a guardian angel...mines beein' sleepin at the wheel for a while (should be fired in my opinion - maye they were and it was actually my NEW guardian angel that picked up the slack). Whatever...in the end a higher being saved my life in a way...now it's my job to put all the pieces together of me in a safe and peacful way.

Does anybody understand what I'm saying? M

I think I do understand Marie. But first, let me just apologize if I put you on the defensive with the denial statement. It is pretty hard to convey the entire picture of what I am trying to say on a message board to someone I have never even met. If you and I were sitting in a room you would see that I have nothing but respect for you and that empathy and understanding are coursing through my veins when I hear your story.

A good therapist can make all the differene in the world but a bad one reaps way more damage than never going to therapy at all. I have had a similar experience where the tables were turned on me and my trust issues and my tendency to want to throw in the towel. That kept me around for another two years.

I want to share my "moment" (2 and a half years ago, but who is counting?). It is not the same as finding out about an OW, but I think the betrayal and sense of unreality is pretty identical. I had asked my H to quit smoking pot when I found out I was pregnant with our daughter. Since he had always minimized and denied a bunch of the smoking, I figured it was just a casual recreational thing anway, and the least he could do as an expectant father would be to quit. He agreed. For the next year I constantly smelled it, sensed it and saw it in his eyes, but whenever I asked I was made to feel crazy. When I finally found his stash (our daugther was 8 months old), it was like the air went out of the room. I confronted him and he lied (saying it was thyme) and I stormed out of the room to go nurse the baby. He walked in and I remember trying to pull my robe up over my exposed body and my face and just wanting to disappear. I felt so betrayed my skin was crawling.

Obviously, my reaction was not about a little weed, it was about the person I loved, trusted and just had a baby with looking deeply in my eyes day after day week after week and swearing something that wasn't true. He swore it on his mother, his love for me, our newborn baby.

That, of course, turned out to be the tip of the ice berg. Long story short I have come so far in 2 and a half years and have done so much obsessive research that I finally landed on what feels like the right analysis of the situation for me -- I am pretty much a textbook codpendent and he is a narcissist. I am not at all hellbent on labels, but these ones fit us like a glove.

The hallmarks of narcissism -- pathologial lying and the creation of a FALSE SELF that does not distinguish between lies and truth and does not experience empathy. For those who are not narcissistic, this way of being is almost as hard to imagine asteh concept of infinity.

The classic codependent in turn has her own unhealthy combination of denial, enabling, manipulating, controlling and ultimately self-sabbotage.

The good news is that codependency is way easier to change than narcissism which is pretty set in stone regardless of the length and type of therapy. After all, they are such sincere liars that most mental health professionals cannot see through it, and as you saw, getting validation from a professional just makes it worse. I get having to re-write everything becasue that FALSE SELF of your H has dominated every interaction you have ever had.

Let me just be clear that in the end, I am doing a lot of projecting here. (Same is true for my words to you, Sawinski. At times you have pointed out some things about your H including his pot smoking that have gotten my hackles up because of my exerpience and I have wondered if you look the other way because you want and need a good enough father figure for your little one. I totally get that, becasue I am in that same boat!)

I could be way off about either or both of you. I have been in my own life for 34 years and my relationship for 9, and it is only in the last 9 months or so I have started putting to scratch the surface on my own inner dynamics. Sorry if I came off sounding like some sort of arrogant expert. I am just trying to blindly muddle my way through like the rest of you. And I am truly, truly sorry for you Marie. I know your whole story (at least what you have shared on here) and I think you are one hell of a woman. You too Sawinski!

Privateeye,

I do agree with what you have said, I do look the other way on a lot of things. Partly because I was always taught to pick and chose my battles. I was always told that fighting every battle is a waste of time. There are a lot of things that I confront him on and we try to work on. His pot smoking is something that I chose to ignore partly because he doesnt bring it home and our little girl doesnt have to see it or smell it so I just leave it. I figure that my husband is an adult and as long as he is doing what a good husband would do then him smoking pot when he is away from me is a compromise that I am willing to make. I guess I pick the battles that directly effect me or my daughter and the rest is for him to deal with.

I do appreciate your words and thoughts it gives me another point of view to think about. Regardless of what others have said to you to make you hid for awhile I do appreciate you to.

On a good note my husband for the last 3 months has made a real effort to make things right. He has controlled his anger and jealousy and things have been really peaceful around the house. Earlier this year we were going through a hard time, partly due to him not working and feeling like he wasnt doing his part as a father or husband. He has admitted to me that he thinks at times that he suffers from depression which is a big step for him to even admit that to me. I have always thought he was depressed but for him to say it to me gives me hope that he will realize what he puts me through when he goes through those low moments.

Again, thank you for your thoughts, I really do appreciate it.

And for Marie I really hope that you are doing ok and keep us updated.

POed, I wondered what happened to you. Happy to know you are still here, and well and coping. And happy to have your feedback. Absolutely no offense taken on your comment. Takes wayyyy much more than that to raise a hair on the back of my neck. I don't think there's even many hairs left on the back of my neck by now

Your comments on codependancy are interesting. I think for a time, many years ago...probably in the beginning of our marriage I was behaving in a codependant way. I'm familiar with that behavior. Some people I believe can be molded by their partners behaviors to become codependent in the relationship if the have the tendancy to be that way to begin with. In looking back on my life I'd say I was not codependent before this marriage. Quite the opposite. I am a very independent thinker and do'er. I was pretty much your classic non-conformist and didn't really care to spend much energy or thought on what other people did in or with their lives. If people in my life behaved in a way that didn't work for me, I'd accept them for who they were and keep them at arms length, nonjudgementally. As long as they didn't affect my life they could do what ever worked for them. I was very much focused on what to do with my life...not enough time to help them figure out their lives or fix their lives or control their lives. I'm all for helping, being sympathetic and empathetic...but I did have a fixed line on what was acceptable and what was not.

Not so with this relationshp though. Somehow, somewhere along the line this man slowly deprogrammed my identity. My daughter (who is an adult with a family of her own) said just the other day who I am now is not the person I used to be. She saw over the years (she was 10 when we got married) how I changed so much and saw the person I used to be get lost and derailed. I knew this in an unconscious way while this was happening...but love is blind.

I am not by nature/core a co-dependent. I may have become one by default through this relationship and I'll admit I resent that (now seeing the forest for the trees in hindsight). I think too, that the survivor in me that was battling against being the codependent here was what triggered his issues. He felt/saw/knew he couldn't control me, that he was loosing his grip on me and the harder he tried to basically own me or tame me to his liking the more he acted out like a child throwing a temper tantrum but in a much more destructive, insane way. What I saw as loving him, accepting him, caring for him, wanting to help him, enrich his life, share with him and be there for him was taken advantage of and he used those emotions for his benefit. He weakened me.

I'm all for the phrase - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it. That is such a very true statement...But when you are fasely told or made to believe your partner really is doing the best that they can I think if you love them you should help them take a sip. Ahhh, but not so with the dual personality, pathological lying, sex addict. One of them is dying of thirst while the other is drowning in water. It's a loose/loose situation. Unbeknowst to the 'normal' one.

I think I'm going to write a book. Not sure which one to go with. A) The Idiots Handbook On Cheating (for the spouse) or Surviving The Insanity.

As always in my life, in order to survive the devestating things that have happened I've had to find the good...someplace, somehow...and although this is grasping at straws I have to believe that things that happen to people happen for a reason and something good must come out of it. If I don't hold on to that thought surely I will go insane...finally. There really is only so much a human being can endure before they give up the fight, the will to live (I don't mean literally). I'm not ready to give up yet, but then again I never thought I'd even consider it, as now I see the thought has crossed my mind.
M